Jeff Lenard:
Welcome to Convenience Matters. My name is Jeff Lenard with NACS.

John Eichberger:
And I’m John Eichberger with the Fuels Institute and NACS. And Jeff its great to be back on the program with you. It’s been a while.

Jeff Lenard:
It has! And, John EVs are something that I am sure that you talk about on a very regular basis. And the reason we’re having this discussion today is, it continues to be a big discussion point. When you look at what the mandates are that some states are coming out with, that the automakers are looking at, and what the Administration is looking at, how that affects gas prices, et cetera. You could work EVs and a pretty much any conversation you’ll want it to.

John Eichberger:
And it seems like they do. I mean, I’ve given 55 presentations in 2021, and I would say 50 to 51 of them have been focused on electric vehicles. So it is definitely a topic of conversation people all want to participate in.

Jeff Lenard:
So today, again, it’s about experience and for that let’s welcome our guest. It’s Brent Gruber, he is Senior Director of Global Automotive at J.D. Power. So welcome, Brent.

Brent Gruber:
Thanks for having me on the show.

Jeff Lenard:
So let’s just start off really big. What does J.D. Power look at? And we know J.D. Power in all the wonderful things they do in ratings and what it means with what consumers say, but focusing specifically on experience in EVs. What’s the big picture that J.D. Power is looking at?

Brent Gruber:
Yeah, well, at the crux of what J.D. Power does is representing the voice of the customer. And when it comes to EV specifically capturing that voice of the customer, looking at all those different experiences and the interactions that they have with the vehicle, we’re talking about really from the very beginning, from consideration, what gets people to consider and ultimately purchase electric vehicles. And then once they do own electric vehicles that ownership experience. So obviously that involves charging, both at home and in the public domain, as well as the experience with the product and some of the problems that they may have had, or just the daily interaction, the real world living with EVs, if you will.

John Eichberger:
So Brent, in general, in the research you guys have done, what is the average experience? Is it positive? Is it very positive? Is it middle of the road? Is it a negative? I go around the country, I’ve talked a lot of people and so many point out to this study that came out in California about six months ago, I guess, where they say 20% of EV owners rejected their EV and bought an internal combustion engine as their next vehicle. And I know there’s a lot of holes in that study, but I’ve talked to IHS market and they’ve said their data kind of mirrors that same thing. What is going on? What are…how are people feeling about their EVs once they get them?

Brent Gruber:
I think one thing that’s really clear though, with the EV space is it’s rapidly changing. So you can take a pulse today and it will certainly be different when you take that same pulse maybe a month from now. But overall the experience has been relatively positive towards the idea of having an EV. Not necessarily a positive experience with the product that they own. So the particular model that an owner may have, they may not be completely thrilled with that experience, but they do like the idea of owning an electric vehicle. One thing that we saw with our EVX ownership study was this high level of commitment to EVs. So despite the experience that they have and how dissatisfying that may have been, it does not necessarily dissuade people from purchasing an EV again in the future. So I think that’s really a key takeaway that people seem to be pretty sold on EVs.

Jeff Lenard:
One question I have in looking at EVs and how they’re purchased. I remember hearing John talk at one of his presentations a couple of years ago, and he was talking about a study where these various groups that look at car-buying habits, and you log in, you look at what’s available and what you want to do and how so many people would look at all these awesome muscle cars and these amazing cars. And they’d follow them through the end of the journey and they’d buy a Honda Civic. And it was like, why did that happen? And the reason is because the person that is making the decision on what to buy finally entered the room. Is there something similar in that would be the, the other part of the family. Now would there be something similar with EVs, but almost the opposite where somebody that may be not the primary driver is really driving the purchase decision. It might be younger kids. It might be somebody who says, we need to do this because EVs are fill in the blank. And then there may be somewhat of a disconnect if the primary driver has to figure out how to continually charge is. Is that something that you’ve studied or run into?

Brent Gruber:
Well, I think one thing that is pretty clear is you know, this idea that there’s a preconceived notion of what EV is or what an EV does and what living with that product may be like. And so I think people have a certain expectation going into the purchase process whether it’s the primary purchaser or other members of the family who are driving some of the direction for the purchase. I think that what’s happening is a lot of times people are going to the dealers or they’re having conversations with friends, family members, and having the discussion around what value proposition EVs provide. There’s certainly some unique opportunities with EVs and so I think when people get down into that purchase process and have an opportunity to learn about what some of those benefits are from a cost and value perspective, I think that certainly changes. One thing that we saw with our {inaudible} study is just the mere exposure to an EV increases the likelihood that somebody will purchase one by about threefold. So once they do go to the dealer and they do have an opportunity to maybe interact or see an electric vehicle and learn more about it, it’s increasing that consideration rate, considerably.

John Eichberger:
What seems to be the drawing, the driving characteristic, that piques people’s interests. So clearly you’ve got those who are first movers. They want a zero-emission vehicle, or they want the newest, latest, greatest technology. I know within the next couple of years, electric vehicles will be offered in the models type of vehicle that customers want to buy at a cost that’s competitive, or even better than an internal combustion engine. And they calculate total cost of ownership over the life of the vehicle. It’s a cheaper vehicle. But is that the draw? I keep thinking about this scenario where you have a family of five and you got preteens and teenagers, and they’ve got all these events and their time is everything in your life and that the potential of getting into a vehicle without a full charge, and then having to wait 30 minutes before we can get to your next destination, I’m just really I’m questioning as to what is the driving motivating factor here. And is it strong enough to get us to mass adoption where it is a viable choice for all consumers as we go forward?

Brent Gruber:
Well, I think one thing that’s clear right now, we’re still talking about a relatively small percentage of the total US retail sales. So right now we’re looking at about 3% of total US retail sales are electric vehicles. And with that small percentage, there are certainly a lot of early adopters. And so you kind of have to separate the early adopters who may have different motivators from those who are quote/unquote part of the mass-market consumption. You know, we’ve seen an example of this already when the Mustang Mach-E hit the market, that seemed to attract a lot more first-time EV owners than many of the models prior to it. And so there’s a different set of motivators for people who are purchasing products like that versus maybe some of those early adopters. The early adopters, a lot of that was driven by first and foremost, the green aspect.

Brent Gruber:
So wanting to have less of an impact on the environment. That was a key factor in considering electric vehicles, but we’re also talking products that are generally much higher priced than internal combustion engine-powered vehicles. And so they tend to be a little bit more premium with that comes a lot of features, technologies and performance. So the performance aspect is a real key driver for the premium purchaser, but on the mass market side, which is where we start to see more of those new EV owner entrance, that becomes more of that cost and value proposition where it’s not necessarily performance that they’re looking for, but it’s the lower running costs. So fewer oil changes, less trips to the service facility you know, tax incentives, driving some of those prices down. So that’s really, what’s driving the mass-market consumer, and I think it will for the foreseeable future.

Jeff Lenard:
And I would imagine another component when the early adopters are those that just have to have the first of everything. And then the next round is logic. Those who have the spreadsheet and lay things out, and then the third element would be like the emotion Where is there something that you have the logic, plus you have a little bit of emotion. We know in like public relations, emotion always beats facts, whether it’s a political ad or anything else. And, are there emerging surprise and delight type features with EVs that are gaining traction with people that they’re just saying, “wow,” whether it’s the acceleration or whether it’s other components that it’s more than just possibly saving money, but it is a different, if you will, experience?

Brent Gruber:
It is. Yeah. So the mass market consumer is going into this purchase process, thinking that there’s a value proposition at play and that’s what’s driving them there. But once they actually purchase the electric vehicle and have an opportunity to live with it, they’re very pleasantly surprised by the performance. So we have electric vehicles from general mass market manufacturers and those owners of those electric vehicles from those manufacturers are very pleasantly surprised when they realize the level of performance that an electric vehicle owns. So it’s one of those unique delights, if you will. Another item that we saw that has really crept up in our technology study is the whole idea of one pedal driving. And we look at a whole host of technologies on the vehicle, not just EVs, but these technologies and whether there’s interest in the use of those, because manufacturers want to know if there are technologies that don’t resonate with consumers and they don’t use them and so there’s lost value there. But one that we’re seeing that’s really rising is that whole one-pedal driving. The idea of having one pedal to use for driving with that regenerative braking is one that seems to really be resonating with owners. So I think there are some unique differences for electric vehicles that are providing these surprise delights for consumers.

John Eichberger:
You know, it’s interesting to talk about regenerative braking. I’ve got a plug-in hybrid and I turn on max regenerative braking, and I hardly ever touch the brake. And it is a fascinating one to get into a car that does not have that. I find myself running up on the tail end of cars a lot faster than I plan to. It’s a little startling. But you know, Jeff earlier, you mentioned the muscle car and flashback a couple of years ago. I don’t remember how long it was. But I was out in Palo Alto with the NACS Chairman and we were able to arrange a tour of Tesla and they were able to arrange test drives. So the model S had only been out a year or two and they still have the old Roadster. And so the Chairman and I are in the Roadster, we’re driving up, we’re having fun.

John Eichberger:
And this thing accelerates so fast it snapped your head back, like you’re on a roller coaster. And we pull up to the line at a red light and we’re sitting there, we’re silent. And you hear this {car engine noise} and a Porsche GT3 pulls up next to us. We look at it, we smile at each other., and I say, you know what? We can beat him across the line. He just smiled, shook his head said, yeah, but he’s going to look and sound a lot better doing it. And so you think about these muscle car enthusiasts. Yeah, they want power, they want performance, but I’m wondering if they’re gonna be satisfied with a vehicle that cranks out 600 equivalent horsepower and goes {whirring noise} instead of roars. It’s going to be very interesting. That’s a customer preference element that I don’t think we thought about too much. I remember when Fisker had had their heyday and one of my board members actually had the Fisker Karma. There was a button you can push change the sound that the vehicle made to try to give you that…replicate that noise. But it’s going to be an interesting dynamic as we get these performance vehicles coming out. Is it going to satisfy more of the gear head muscle car enthusiast?

Jeff Lenard:
Yeah. And I agree with that. I remember Miata – what, 20, 30 years ago – they spent a lot of time figuring out what the horn should sound like, what everything else should sound like. I’m far from a car enthusiast. I’m more of somebody that just likes to annoy people and I have a hybrid.

John Eichberger:
You’re so good at that, too, Jeff. {laughs}

Jeff Lenard:
And a couple months ago, kid’s out front and I figured, okay, I’m going to come up and I’m going to scare the bejesus out of her. So I came up, I put it in neutral and I gunned it in my hybrid. And then I just kept on like rolling. And she was like, “is your car broke?” And it’s like, no, just kind of… That was the end of the conversation.

John Eichberger:
There was no roar, was there?

Jeff Lenard:
No, there was no roar. It was silent. So yes, not just for the car enthusiasts, but just for people who are unpleasant people, we need that sound. So also one other thing, I love the idea of the one-foot breaking or the one foot. So the tagline could be put your other foot on the dash, relax. {laughter}

John Eichberger:
So we’ve talked a lot about why people would buy an EV. I mean, you guys have also studied their satisfaction in terms of their recharging structure. So one of the things NACS is working hard on is how do we get DC fast chargers deployed at convenience stores. People know where gas stations are. They know where the convenience stores are. They’re going to go to those locations intuitively when they need a quick recharge. And so we’re trying to build the infrastructure, but a lot of them said, yeah, but you know, 80% of charging occurred at home. What have you guys evaluated in terms of charging behavior? We assume it’s not going to be similar to refueling its gas tank and I got to go down to empty then refuel once a week. Have you guys modeled or looked at any of that type of behavior?

Brent Gruber:
We have. Yeah, and you’re right. Our data shows that approximately 85% of all primary charging occurs in the home environment. But one thing that’s important to know, even for those people who are charging at home, if the public charging is more readily available, convenient, and cost-effective, they would certainly consider charging in public. So this is not a situation where people only want to charge at home. They need, and oftentimes want, to charge in public because of the level of convenience that offers as well. And so that’s something that we’ve looked at very closely and with that public charging environment there are people who need to rely on public charging because maybe they live in multiunit dwellings, or don’t have access to residential charging. And then there are those people who need to do public charging as a convenience because they are on the road or they’re out and about and want to make use of that.

Brent Gruber:
And what we’ve looked at is some of the aspects that influence the satisfaction with public charging what sort of represents the ideal experience, if you will. A few things came through when looking at that public charging experience. First and foremost speed is critical. So speed of charging is certainly very critical. But it’s not just a matter of speed, it’s also the combination of having things to do while you’re charging. Whether it’s fast charging or a slower level 2 charging, there’s still a certain amount of wait time. You know, people want to have things to do while they’re charging. So whether it’s shopping or grabbing a bite to eat, they want to have that access to those amenities nearby. So I think those were the most critical aspects of the public charging. But another element that we saw that factors into this is the cost of charging. Now, if the charging is free or heavily reduced, consumers are very willing to overlook the speed and the convenience factor. They’ll accept something that’s slower, they’ll accept charging that’s maybe in a less ideal location if the charging is free or heavily reduced. So there’s a lot of things at play within that public charging scenario.

Jeff Lenard:
And just going back to experience, because I think that’s a really under studied part, not necessarily by you, but the two things that we generally look at is what is the cost and what is the speed, but could there be more experience. In thinking about the NACS Show, in one of the general sessions we had Jared Scheeler and Kevin Smartt, who are our past two most recent NACS Chairmen. And they talked about EV charging and one of the things I believe Kevin said it is we really don’t treat people who charge at our stores very well. And he didn’t mean his company or himself. What he meant was compare how charging is at a retail environment, at a convenience store to what gasoline or diesel is. For gasoline and diesel, there’s a canopy to prevent rain, sun, whatever else from, from impeding you.

Jeff Lenard:
It makes it a little bit more comfortable. It’s a direct pathway towards inside. It encourages you to go to inside this store. There may be videos, there may be other entertainment, something like that. Then you kind of look at a lot of chargers and they are just kind of out there and maybe “you guys good, just checking in on you.” But there’s really no elevated experience. And Kevin said there’s so much potential. Imagine something closer, like a Sonic experience where you have these big screens, you have canopies and it does feel like you’re welcome there, not just another part of the operation. That’s probably worth looking into a little bit more, I suppose?

Brent Gruber:
Yeah, absolutely. That’s all part of the things to do while charging and adding to the sense of convenience. So when we talk about the experience it has to be convenient, it has to be cost-effective, there has to be an availability of chargers there. So when you’re building an environment that is conducive making all of these things better for consumers, you’re creating that ideal experience. You’re providing an opportunity for people to have a satisfactory experience while charging their electric vehicles and those are certainly elements that play into that.

John Eichberger:
And Jeff, you raised a great point. I was having a conversation with one of the charging companies recently, and we were talking about canopies. And the thing is, when we are getting into modeling the economics on an EV charging location, you’re trying to optimize the cost of of installation. So you’re located it as close to the power source as you can, which is not always in the ideal location for customer-centric behavior. Ultimately, as we build out this infrastructure, we have to stop treating EV drivers as second-class citizens. We have to treat them as valued customers. We have to give them squeegees for the windshields, trash cans, canopies a clear, safe path to walk from the charger to the store, a place it to sit inside the store. We need to start accomodating a dwell time of 15 to 20 minutes for a customer that you want to become a repeat customer. And that may require a little higher CAPEX investment to locate the chargers in the ideal customer-centric location. But man, I gotta to tell you, Brent, I think you probably agree, if we don’t start creating an environment that supports these customers, they’re going to find someplace else to charge. And if you’re not going to take care of your customers, they will walk away from you in a heartbeat. The loyalty is not based upon, “you’re just there so you get my business.” If you don’t treat them right, they’re going to leave.

Jeff Lenard:
No, John, they’re not going to walk away, they’re going to quietly drive away.

John Eichberger:
With one foot.

Jeff Lenard:
Sorry. Brent, I interrupted you.

Brent Gruber:
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more, John.When you think about the current environment and filling up an ICE vehicle, I have to go to a gas station. That’s where I have to fill up my vehicle. But with an electric vehicle, there are alternative options. They can charge at home, like we had talked about, which is certainly convenient, easy, cost-effective. They can charge at retail centers, they can charge at restaurants, they can charge at hotels. There are a lot of different options for people when it comes to charging. And as this infrastructure builds out, we have to keep that in mind, that there’s a competitive landscape out there for quote/unquote “mindshare” of the owner and where they’re going to want to charge their vehicle. You know, you also hit on something, John, about the site location and the closeness to the power source. And certainly that’s a bigger issue with the fast charging than it is with level 2 charging. But I think what’s really important here for the EV owner is whether it’s fast charging or level 2 charging, there’s a very strong need for the location to be more conducive and accepting of electric vehicle owners by providing them with things to do while they’re charging.

Jeff Lenard:
And I think that once you get that experience and we’ve been talking about experience, whether it’s the car itself or whether it’s the charging, that’s what gets people fired up about being your advocates too. That’s what gets people going on social media. Whatever it is, where the charging went from a chore to a joy, we already know that there’s so many elements of the drive being a joy, whatever the type of car is, but when the charging is a joy, man, you have it figured out as long as you can do it in a cost-effective way. And that’s what experience is about. It’s it’s about everybody else hearing how much fun you had.

John Eichberger:
You know, Jeff, that’s funny, you said that because I remember years ago, a former Board Member of NACS had an unbelievable carwash operation down in Louisiana. And I went down to visit his store. And he said “we used to try to attract customers because we cater to the kids. So we had an oil change location. And when parents would come in and have the kids in back, we bring them an Etch A Sketch and a Slurpee for free or in the carwash, we had Disney characters in the carwash and we had different colored foams that the kids could choose what color foam to bring them in.” I can envision a scenario where an EV charging station at a convenience store has kids-centric amenities., So I have got a car full of kids and I need to get a 50-mile charge and I’ve got 15 minutes, but my goodness, somebody take, take this off me, ‘Calgon, take me away’ type situation. And start developing like a circus-type atmosphere around the charging occasion to give those kids something to do.

Jeff Lenard:
Whatever it is, a playground, a dog park, something like that…maybe don’t put the kids at the dog park, but just something like that…cat park, that’d be interesting. That’d probably be social media-worthy.

Brent Gruber:
Yeah. I think that you’re talking about creating an environment that is absolutely conducive to sitting and creating some dwell time that’s enjoyable and there are things to do. We talk oftentimes about improving technology with electric vehicles particularly as it relates to charging with ranges and charge times and things like that. We’re still pretty far off from having electric vehicles that can charge in a similar amount of time as it takes to fuel up a vehicle. So there is going to be a certain amount of dwell time for the foreseeable future. And that creates a completely different experience than what most people are used to. And so with change comes opportunity, and there’s certainly an opportunity to create a better environment for those people with what we expect someday to be the new normal.

Jeff Lenard:
Well, we know that you focus…J.D. Power focuses on what the customers are saying now, but there’s probably, in harvesting this data in these insights, a little bit of a look at what the future may hold. Are you able to distill any of this and make any predictions for what charging might look like in five years, or might look like 10 years from now at a retail location, or want to just go out on a limb and envision what it could be like, whether it’s time of charging or experience related to charging?

Brent Gruber:
I think one thing that’s certain to change is the technology. The technology is really going to dictate how these interactions look three years from now. Not too far off, we’re going to have batteries that provide much longer ranges than what we’re seeing today. We’re going to have charging technology that is shortening the time to charge these electric vehicles considerably. And so when you look down the road, expect some of those technology changes, you’re going to see something that’s probably a little bit different than it is today. And it still comes back to, though, knowing that we’re going to have to create a welcoming environment for electric vehicle owners. Because whether it’s 30 minutes or it’s 10 minutes, you’re still going to have people coming to your location, sitting for a period of time, and you’re going to have to provide some conveniences to them. So I think what you’ll see over time is electric vehicle charging stations that probably morph more into traditional gas stations that we have today, where it’s a quick stop environment, but you still have to provide access to amenities and accessories for them.

Jeff Lenard:
Well, I think that sums things up pretty well for this. Do you have any final thoughts, John?

John Eichberger:
No it’s funny, you’re right, it sums it up. And Brent, thank you so much for sharing the research that you’ve done and the insights you guys have. The challenge I run into with this issue is every conversation I have raises more elements that need to be discussed and explored. You talked about technology and how long will today’s charger be viable in the market and when does it have to be replaced. That’s a whole different conversation, but it is a fascinating time. And while we may differ with…I may have differences of opinion with a lot of people about the pace and the scale of change, it is changing. And with change, not all change is bad. Not all change needs to be detrimental and scary. If you are planning ahead and learning and taking the time to understand the customers – your customers, Jeff – our members can do something about this.

John Eichberger:
They can enhance their business and the customer experience. And this doesn’t have to be that scary of an endeavor, but they just have to start paying attention. And hopefully conversations like this with you, Brent and other conversations we’re having, is getting the convenience industry to open up their eyes and realize, you know what? This is going to be something, and I can either be a part of it or I can watch it happen to somebody else. But I think it’s really important to get our arms around and really understand what the options are.

Jeff Lenard:
Well said. And Brent, a website to find all the great stuff that J.D. Power has?

Brent Gruber:
Yup. JDPower.com. All of our information is available on there, including the press releases for our recently released electric vehicle studies, as well.

Jeff Lenard:
Well, as always, it’s great to hear from J.D. Power. So thank you for joining us today, Brent, and thank you all for listening to Convenience Matters.

Convenience Matters Outro:
Convenience Matters is brought to you by NACS and produced in partnership with Human Factor. For more information, visit convenience.org.

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